Either the President will go down in history as a great figure, as one of the leaders of the good change, as a man who contributed to building a strong and fair state in Poland, or we have lost,” said Minister of Justice Zbigniew Ziobro, commenting on Andrzej Duda's decision to veto two bills on the judiciary branch.
In a long interview for the weekly “Sieci”, Zbigniew Ziobro pointed out that President Andrzej Duda's double veto “was a sad day for all Poles who counted on real change in the system of justice.”
“The President's hasty decision will make it more difficult to fulfill the promises we – including the President – made during the election campaign. We have to be clear: either we make deep changes, ones that will inevitably lead to protests of the establishment, or even of a wider group of people, or else we content ourselves with changes that are merely apparent and not real. And we must not give the impression that we are merely reacting to protests, which were actually quite small,” stressed the Minister of Justice.
“The broad smiles on the faces of Professor Gersdorf and Mr. Żurek”
Ziobro also spoke about the consequences of the President's decision. “After heavy battles in the committees and in the plenary room, it was hard to accept the President's move calmly, especially since we had not been forewarned. There were no signals that the head of state had reservations or comments. We would have accepted every suggestion and amendment, provided it did not undermine the essence of the reform,” said the Minister.
“With his final decision, the President made the people who called themselves the «special caste» very happy,” he added. “It was enough to see the broad smiles on the faces of Professor Gersdorf [first president of the Supreme Court – ed.] and Mr. Żurek [spokesman of the National Council of the Judiciary]. I don't think that those who had been mistreated by Polish courts and who hoped for change were in such a great mood,” stressed the Minister in the interview.
"I trust the President will seek wise counsel"
According to Ziobro, the President can take one of two roads. “One is to submit bills that are consistent with his electoral promise and will bring about real change to the judiciary. If he does this, I will still believe that the vetoes were a mistake, that the bills could have been sent to the Tribunal, but I will roll up my sleeves to work for the President's success,” said the Minister. “If he does this, it will mean that he remains faithful to the values which united our camp around the project of good change,” he added.
“We are talking about a reform, which lies at the very foundation of the party. It was the fundamental reason for the establishment of the Law and Justice party. The name is not accidental. [...] Finally, this is a choice between greatness and a burlesque. I believe that wisdom, courage and boldness will prevail. Despite enormous pressure, Andrzej Duda will do the right thing,” stressed Ziobro. “In politics, strength of character pays off. Such strength was shown by Viktor Orban, for example, who paid no attention to demonstrations, criticism and attempts to ridicule him, but changed his country against the European establishment and its leaders,” he said.
“I trust that the President, though lacking significant political experience, will seek wise counsel and above all, let me say it again, will be faithful to his values. In politics, there are four levels: a system of values, strategic goals, tactical choices and the always present personal ambition. When self-aggrandizement overrules values and strategic goals, mistaken tactical choices lead one astray,” added the Minister of Justice.
“Such people are not even moths”
According to Ziobro, the President's circle “may include people who paint visions of a great presidency, justifying them with national interest and the good of the state. However, these are people who want to live like larvae on the political body of the President's office, so as to fulfill their dream of eventually hatching into butterflies and becoming important figures on the political scene. Most often, however, such people fail to transform even into moths,” he emphasized.
Ziobro revealed that the Ministry supported a variant of the bill, under which the minister would play no role in the process of retiring judges. “It was during these arrangements, when the parliamentary caucus was working on the project, that we arrived at the final concept of systemic and organizational changes in the Supreme Court. I was convinced that this solution was constitutional, and therefore I accepted it. [...] One word from the President would have been enough to change the formula. This power could have been vested in the President or the President of the National Council of the Judiciary. All four amendments proposed by the President and the 3/5 majority requirement were adopted just as promptly,” explained the Minister during the interview.
“The meeting with the President depressed me”
Ziobro also talked about the proposal for a meeting with the President, which was to clarify any issues.
“I met with the President at the end of March or early in April. We discussed the detailed solutions to be included in the draft law on the National Council of the Judiciary. The President was well prepared and was familiar with the bill. I also spoke in general about the premises of the Supreme Court law concerning the Disciplinary Board. To be honest, this meeting depressed me. [...] I asked for it after the ultimatum over the 3/5 majority. At first, the President agreed to a private meeting, and then, for reasons unknown to me, refused. So, it is regrettable that the President spoke in his address about many consultations with politicians, professors, philosophers, while a meeting with the Minister of Justice would also have been useful,” noted the Minister. In Ziobro's view, “either the President will go down in history – this is no exaggeration – as a great figure, as one of the leaders of the good change, as a man who contributed to building a strong and fair state in Poland, or else we have lost.”
“The first to lose will be the President, who, at best, will be able to enjoy the role of a young commentator with bodyguards,” Minister Ziobro told “Sieci”.
Źródło: tvn24.pl/tłumaczenie Intertext.com.pl