Former ABW brought in to testify as a witness before Pegasus committee

Pogonowski was detained on Monday (December 2) by the police and brought in as a witness for questioning before the committee. Upon arriving at the Sejm, he was handed over to the Marshal's Guard, who escorted him to the hearing.

Shortly after the committee's proceedings began, PiS MPs Marcin Przydacz and Mariusz Gosek, along with the head of the PiS parliamentary caucus, Mariusz Błaszczak, appeared in the room. Błaszczak announced that PiS would file a complaint with the prosecutor's office regarding Pogonowski’s detention and escorting, citing a Constitutional Tribunal ruling deeming the committee unconstitutional.

Przydacz and Gosek, who had resigned from their membership in the committee, sat at the presidium table to deliver a statement. However, the committee voted to proceed with the questioning, preventing them from speaking. PiS MPs considered this a violation of the Sejm rules.

After taking the oath, Pogonowski exercised his right to make an open statement. He criticized the committee for prematurely assuming that the use of Pegasus in Poland, associated with operational control conducted by special services, was illegal, a claim he firmly denied.

"I wanted to, and still want to, strongly oppose this thesis because it is harmful. Harmful to the Republic of Poland, harmful to special and police services, which are losing their working tools," Pogonowski stated.

The witness accused the committee of disclosing classified information related to the methods and techniques used by the services. "The committee's approach of revealing classified information about the forms and methods of operational work by the services undermines Poland’s interests and violates the Penal Code, as such information is always strictly confidential," he said.

"We live in truly dangerous times; blinding and deafening the services does not enhance Poland's security level," Pogonowski emphasized, adding that it weakens counterintelligence discipline in Poland.

The witness explained that advanced operational techniques had often helped protect the Republic of Poland "from real terrorist, espionage threats, and even common thieves."

He also assured that every tool acquired by the services undergoes "comprehensive verification," including legal and technical aspects. "There is no tool used by the services that would pose an unrecognized risk," he stressed.

Pogonowski elaborated that special services operate under "strict legal and formal constraints," making it impossible for anyone to "fabricate or manipulate data." He added that, from a procedural standpoint, it is easy to determine if a phone has been tampered with. "A skilled forensic analyst or IT specialist could resolve this in two days at most," he noted, dismissing the idea that the services would risk legal consequences. "Such a thing has never happened," he declared.

Asked when he first became aware of the system commonly referred to as Pegasus, also known as "Jarvis" within the services, Pogonowski said he heard the name "Pegasus" around 2018-2019 when media reports surfaced. He added that as head of ABW, he encountered "dozens of different types" of operational systems.

He clarified that "what you call Pegasus, I did not operate, at least not in ABW." While he recognized other names mentioned during the hearing, he declined to discuss them in an open session.

Pogonowski stated that he did not know which tool had been purchased from the Israeli company, its characteristics, or how it was integrated into the telecommunication system. However, he maintained that Pegasus is a legal system because lawmakers cannot explicitly list "all tools, their technical features, etc., used to ensure state security." He underscored the rapid advancement of technology.

"This system meets the requirements outlined by the European Court of Human Rights and the Constitutional Tribunal. ABW is not responsible for the state of the law," Pogonowski stressed.

He added that "the legality of this tool is not only based on the general descriptions by lawmakers, which is natural and normal." He referenced a Constitutional Tribunal ruling from ten years ago, which he claimed "very precisely describes the conditions for the legality of using special and operational techniques by the services."

According to the former ABW chief, it is false to say that any "court-approved and adjudicated method of information acquisition as part of legal control" is illegal.

The former ABW chief testified that the agency had undoubtedly issued an opinion regarding the operation, effectiveness, and safety of the system under the committee's scrutiny. He emphasized that the ABW issued numerous opinions on various aspects of security, including IT security.

However, Pogonowski said he could not recall the details of the opinion and could not confirm whether it pertained to a specific product, as such information is classified. "Any potential concerns from the ABW’s perspective would have been raised during the acquisition or other procurement process for any special technical tool. This always initiates a process that either concludes with approval or rejection," he added.

Asked if he saw any abuse in using Pegasus to surveil the head of the opposition's campaign, Krzysztof Brejza (KO), during the elections, Pogonowski said: "Operational control over the person you mentioned, given their role and political involvement, was ordered by a court." "I do not know the justification for the request. If I did, I would not discuss it," he noted.

Pogonowski emphasized that the services never misled the national prosecutor or judges about the software used, and that judges were aware of Pegasus, including from media reports.

The witness stated that all operational controls and every request sent to the General Prosecutor’s Office are signed by the head of the unit or their deputy. Asked if he knew the names of individuals targeted with Pegasus, he confirmed: "I certainly knew." Questioned whether supervising the tool was the direct competence of the ABW chief, he replied that "it is not possible for the agency head to directly oversee the data flow from operational control."

The former ABW chief testified that he had heard of the Israeli company NSO Group during his tenure but had never "knowingly" met its representatives.

Pogonowski also addressed the company Matic, acknowledging he knew of its existence only through media reports. "As far as I know, it is an intermediary or exclusive representative of NSO Group in Poland, or possibly more broadly in Europe, offering equipment or software produced by NSO Group or perhaps other companies - I am not certain," he said.

Asked whether, as head of ABW, he discussed operational software tools with PiS chairman Jarosław Kaczyński, Pogonowski denied it. "If I ever met Chairman Kaczyński at all," he added. Asked whether he spoke with PiS politicians about being summoned before the committee, he replied that he believed not. "Many people sent me text messages emphasizing the illegality of these summonses after the Constitutional Tribunal ruling," he testified, adding that no one prevented him from attending the committee or suggested what to do. "I do not maintain contact with PiS MPs," he emphasized.

Pogonowski commented on his political involvement, explaining that he ran in the 2011 parliamentary elections on the PiS list because he was "asked to take on this challenge." He declared he has never been a member of any political party.

Asked if he was a member of PiS's program council, he replied: "Hard to say." "I helped (develop PiS's program) in the area of special services," he clarified. The former ABW chief stated that he currently works at the National Bank of Poland (NBP) but found it difficult to say whether this role was a reward or a penalty for his assistance to PiS in the election campaign.

After the public session of Pogonowski’s hearing concluded, the committee chair remarked that the witness had evaded certain questions, citing that the information he possessed was classified. As a result, she announced that the committee would ask more specific questions based on classified materials in a closed session.

Additionally, the chairperson stated that Pogonowski "was untruthful in many areas," and evidence proving this would be presented during the closed session. "It was good, of course, that we could finally have a substantive discussion and that everyone could see the somewhat dismissive attitude of the witness," she added.

In mid-October, after Pogonowski failed to appear for the committee hearing for the third time, citing the September Constitutional Tribunal ruling deeming the committee's work unconstitutional, the committee, after consulting legal experts, determined that his detention and forced escort were justified. The Warsaw District Court concurred.

Pogonowski served as ABW head from 2016 to 2020. He is now a member of the NBP (National Bank of Poland) management board, responsible for departments of administration, security, and controlling. Previously, he was the chief of staff for Central Anti-Corruption Bureau head Mariusz Kamiński and unsuccessfully ran for the Sejm on PiS's list in 2011.

The parliamentary investigative committee on Pegasus is examining the legality, appropriateness, and purpose of actions taken using this software by the government, special services, and police from November 2015 to November 2023. The committee also seeks to determine who was responsible for purchasing Pegasus and similar tools for Polish authorities.